Fetish Lore

[RichardEvansLee]

By The Marquise

Is it possible to "convert" a straight woman to be the domme of your dreams? No. It’s not only impossible but it’s morally wrong even to try. If a woman has domme tendencies that are dormant or repressed, then I am all for encouraging those traits to blossom; however, if it’s not in her nature, then any attempt to manipulate her into the role is wrong and will fail. As a dominant woman I find that manipulative or pushy bottoms are draining, so I can't imagine vanilla women are much taken with them either!

However, what we consider our nature can sometimes be due to a limited and prejudiced understanding. What is often needed is honest self searching and experimentation so that experience and reflection can open up new areas of pleasure.

There are no shortcuts to success if a submissive male wants to give expression to his nature in an honest, non-threatening and non-manipulative manner. Empathetic understanding of motives and intentions is the key. Self discipline and showing restraint by not demanding sexual satisfaction but serving the object of your worship orally – is an important step. Demanding what you want and treating and transacting with your life partner like a pro domme is not on the list of recommended actions!

One approach to consider is explaining to your partner what submissiveness means to you. The stereotypical images the media disseminate about this lifestyle allow a lot of room for misunderstanding. Assuming this is the only information source available, it wouldn't be unusual for a woman to deduce that a sub male is simply one who wishes to be beaten, though of course there is much more to it than that. There is now a lot of reading material that conveys the joy and pleasure of bdsm and you may want to think about introducing her to these.

Another common misconception is where the woman regards BDSM activity as something she partakes in to please her partner. In this mindset, she might well worry about conforming to his vision rather than assuming that this gives her an opportunity to take control of the situation. Tell her you want to serve her and make her life as full of love as possible. It never hurts!

Another possible solution is to serve more subtly. Identify the things that the woman really likes doing, and work hard to support her in enjoying them more. She should see your behaviour in a positive light, and you should become closer through sharing it.

Commonly, the woman may even be submissive herself, leaving the male in the ironic position of only being able to serve her needs fully by feigning dominance. If you believe you can do a share-and-share-about arrangement, this may be an angle to explore. Some women top their partners on request, because they feel it enhances the relationship since their mate is happier. It’s one possible scenario although the male must be careful not to make demands. A communication of need is acceptable in a frank and open exchange. I do not judge the need to compartmentalise (as situations vary hugely) but feel that there is a need to at least try and communicate. I do not like the presumption or lack of courage, in saying “she does not understand,” when you have not communicated with her about it.

I can understand the reluctance of those in long-term relationships to broach such discussions given the possibility of it souring or ending a relationship. Many men in such circumstances do compartmentalise their lives and run parallel, separate existence's. The downside is that you have to accept that you only have severely restricted time to enjoy such opportunities, that it is open to detection and not an integrated part of your life. It might be braver or more rewarding to be open but there is the risk of losing what might otherwise be a happy relationship if such revelations are unwelcome. However, I don't see why the relationship needs to end because of communication on this subject. Maybe it was ending anyway and perhaps you need to consider if that would necessarily be undesirable?

I believe that submission needs its dominant counterpart if it’s to reach its full potential. However, much can be done to improve a vanilla relationship if the male attends to the positive aspects of his nature without expecting a quid pro quo. It is possible for a man, in his own conversion to heartfelt submission, to change his attitude to women in general and his partner in particular. In that frame of mind, the language and the process changes. The woman is in charge and is honoured, so this may lead to her becoming more dominant—or it may not. Either way, the male gets the honour of serving her.

Whether or not any particular practice is a viable option depends entirely on how you and any potential partners feel about it. It’s all incredibly subjective. What about employing the services of a pro-domme to meet the woman and talk about BDSM? You need not be present at the meetings unless/until the woman wishes to practice 'techniques' under the tutelage of the Domme.

The quest for a fulfilling relationship is a journey of many stages. At each level, the next seems impossible and unattainable. However, if you move slowly, praise her skills, behave impeccably towards her, it is possible to travel together to places of which you may never have dreamed existed.

Are there happy endings? Some. Are there relationships that just end? Yes, I wish I had something more optimistic to report. To me, people are what they are and I don't try to change them fundamentally— adapt and possibly improve their experience, yes!

I do believe that a long term relationship is more likely with someone you could describe as your best friend. Compatibility in things beyond the sexual is a vitally important bond to forge with someone. That said, if your BDSM sexuality is a deep part of you, don't you want to be able to share this with someone? A man making himself vulnerable and talking about emotions can be very appealing to women – including wives. Be sensitive, be considerate and I hope that for you, pervery begins at home!

The Marquise

[Mistress160]

Might I offer as a practical response to above a link to Mistress Rika's brilliant article "The Vanilla Domme: tips for enjoying D/s when you're not a dominatrix" (http://msrika.com/tvd.htm), which begins (slightly edited for space):

"Your partner has approached you with a request. You know it's important, but you have no idea what it could be. He's flushed, excited, nervous, and a little hesitant. Clearly this is very important to him…and most likely then, to you! Then he pops it. "He wants you to be his 'Mistress'. He wants to serve you…as a 'slave'…forever. The words alone, 'Mistress' and 'slave', dominance and submission, may run chills up and down your spine. They conjure up the movie images of dungeons, chains, racks, and whips…of weak, pathetic men getting whipped and tortured by cold-hearted, leather-clad women with whips and stiletto heels.

"Perhaps you've discussed this sort of thing before, perhaps you've even taken on roles during sex play, or it could even hit you from the blue. Your reaction can range from, I'm repulsed, isn't this a little weird, my interest is piqued for some kinky fun, to I've always wanted a slave, and it's about time!... Chances are, your reaction is somewhere towards the more conservative extreme. In fact, if you've always been waiting for a man to be your 24 hour / 7 day-a-week 'slave', this article probably isn't for you (although it still may shed a little alternative light on your approach). This article is targeted to the otherwise "vanilla" domme; the woman who would never consider her partner to be her subordinate, certainly not 24 hours a day, seven days a week…forever...

"You may dislike the imagery of the words 'dominance' and 'submission', 'Mistress' and 'slave'. However, you might like the idea of your partner doting on you, alert to your needs, totally turned on by you, giving you massages, pulling his weight around the house (and then some), focusing on your thoughts and ideas, in short, treating you like a Queen. Personally, I have no interest in hurting my partner or having him kneel when I come in the room, but I absolutely adore the thought that it was his idea to just sit together and chat after he cleaned up from the lunch he prepared us and that he gets physically turned on by folding the laundry! Don't blame him for using those other types of words. They're what he's been fed in the magazines and movies he's seen. He just may not know better.

"Successful relationships of any kind rely on compromises. What I will attempt to provide in this article, is a tested approach to finding a happy medium with your partner. By understanding why he's asking and getting to the root of what he's asking for, the two of you will be able to quickly turn his interests and energies into productive actions that will be desirable to you. Through this approach, you both may be able to reach greater levels of fulfillment in your relationship..."

Final word from Ms160: I highly recommend this.
_________________
Mistress160

"Ms160's [blog] offers education, sensuality, testimonials from subs + a wide array of resources suitable for everyone interested in BDSM (from connoisseur to novice)" DarkScribe ABH

[RichardEvansLee]

Where are my rose colored glasses. Damn, I sat on them and they are broke.

That sounds very nice. But I don’t think it is often true.

Funnily enough I’m saying that even though it is semi-true for me. I hate to toot my own horn but I’ve always been a real romantic sap. My vanilla lovers have never wanted for attentiveness, gifts, me being ready to make a pot of coffee or bring them a coke.

Call it chivalry or service orientation but I’ve always been happiest in being pleasing. (Essentially it is a way of being as a man the woman my Momma was.)

But many – most? – men aren’t satisfied with this. I’m not going to fret over whether or not they are “really” submissive. They have desires that aren’t met by vanilla submission. Often they spend years feeling violently frustrated. Sometimes they get divorced.

And if the man’s primary needs are really masochistic folding the laundry may have few thrills.

(Well, you did say something about intelligent disagreement.)
_________________
Female Led Relationships - Femdom Romance - Femdom Dating

[Mistress160]

LOL. I know, but trust me on this one Richard: it can work. Not always, of course. But it CAN work.

My Mistress160 persona is primarily a product of Fetish Diva Midori's Domme training, but I would have done a great deal for something like MsRika's article prior to meeting Midori. These days a great deal of my current mentoring work is with couples with a non kinky partner, and I've found Ms Rika's article very helpful. It encourages the POSSIBILITY of hope, which is extremely important to both partners. Its also rare in that MsRika addresses the non kinky partner one on one - again important to a person struggling to know how to help their lover with their needs and often feeling left out from the kinky community that surrounds them.

I'm not at all saying that its foolproof. But I can assure you that I know 7 at least (sure thats miniscule but its my own experience - I am sure MsRika could add more, lol) couples that have utilized this article and are now practicing D/s. So put those damaged rose colour specs back on and keep wearing them
!
_________________
Mistress160

"Ms160's [blog] offers education, sensuality, testimonials from subs + a wide array of resources suitable for everyone interested in BDSM (from connoisseur to novice)" DarkScribe ABH

[RichardEvansLee]

[roo-roo]

There are a lot of articles and sites out there which people elevate as the gospel truth; sadly, many of those are full of crap. For example, here's a popular line of reasoning they use, paraphrased and condensed:

So your man wants to spice things up and try new things sexually. That's too bad that he's trying to liven things up and that he's open-minded. Instead, tell him to do housework. Nevermind that he's not satisfied; he's submissive, so he has the magical ability to be happy even when he's unhappy.


One problem with this is that if the sub is mainly interested in service-oriented submission, they'll do it regardless of whether or not their partner is dominating them. It's possible to have lots of service in an otherwise 'nilla relationship. So if he's approaching her in the hopes of trying bdsm, then most likely it's not about service. Otherwise, he'd just do it.

An even bigger issue with these sites is the whole "make him unhappy" mentality. Many seem to think that the sub will automatically start enjoying doing housework just because she tells him to do it. Meanwhile, he's not getting fulfilled in the relationship, yet she thinks that by following these guides, they'll both have a wonderful relationship.


Here's a thought: instead of twisting each others' words around, why not actually communicate with each other?

[solipsist]

I find myself firmly in the 'pro conversion' camp on this.

I think the flaw in The Marquise's position (and really the hard-line position she takes in the first paragraph is moderated in the body of the article) is in assuming that people's nature is fixed and unchangeable. I think perhaps this also ties in with Richard's musings elsewhere on 'post-femdom': Is there such a thing as a "straight" or "vanilla" person, indeed is there such a thing as a "dominant" or a "submissive". Perhaps our natures are all more fluid than that, and while we may spend more time exploring one particular part of the various continua of sexual options, this does not mean that we must all be defined by the limits of our play or even of our imaginings to date.

So what might The Marquise mean when she refers to a "straight" woman ? Is this someone who has thoroughly explored the continuum of sexual desire, then made an informed choice to stick to meat-and-potatoes penis-in-vagina sex ? Or someone who has through social pressure, childhood repression or simply sheltered upbringing remained in the "straight" or "vanilla" space.

Looked at from this perspective, the question "Is it possible to 'convert' a straight woman to be the domme of your dreams?" needs careful examination. "Is it possible to 'convert' a straight woman" - I think it's hard to argue that it's wrong to try to open someone to new experiences that they might enjoy, and which might benefit the relationship. The problematic bit is "[to convert her to] the domme of your dreams?". If it were possible to change the people around us into what we imagine we would like them to be, then life would be much easier than it is. Asking one's partner to be dominant may be good, but insisting that they conform to a fantasy creation is clearly undesirable and impossible.

While you may disagree with some of the specifics, I think the key to Ms Rika's article is "Successful relationships of any kind rely on compromises." If (as I do) you have a strong masochistic streak, then inflicting pain will need to be part of the compromise. And conversely, when I have asked Her to develop her dominant side, and She decides that She wants me to role play as a puppy, then I need to push aside my prejudices (I *hate* looking silly) and do my best to please Her - and what do you know, I'm looking silly with an enormous erection.

It's possible to be a submissive and still communicate your needs without topping from the bottom. I don't claim to be perfect in this regard, but we are learning to keep the 'It would be nice if we..." conversations to the times between scenes, and that during a scene, She is in charge and I am simply there to do her bidding and suffer or humiliate myself however She wants. And conversely, during a session She will occasionally ask me what I want next, but as long as I answer that with "I want whatever you want", this keeps us both in the right headspace.

Between scenes we are developing ways of seamlessly drifting in and out of power exchange roles. She would be desperately unhappy if I was a submissive doormat 24/7, but on the other hand being able to say 'do as you're told' occasionally, set me chores and expect them to be done without question, and just decide what's for dinner without asking, is to me part of the payoff for Her.

So while I might agree that if someone has tried the alternatives and made an informed decision about what they will and won't do sexually, it's wrong to try to force them to change. On the other hand in a committed relationship, it's also wrong to let the relationship go sour because either of you is too attached to your own comfort zone to try to compromise. Getting your partner to try a new sexual style seems to me to be no different to asking them to try a different flavour of ice cream - if you don't try it you'll never know.
_________________
solipsist - property of Mistress 160

[roo-roo]

[Elizabeth7777]

My cousin told me a story once. She'd always wanted to be tied up during sex and she finally got her husband to agree. The next week she ranted to me that she was hideously disappointed because he spent the entire time doing stuff for himself (as she worded it) instead of doing all of the things to her she wanted done. "This was supposed to be about *me*"

I don't offer that story as evidence of anything. Their marriage was pretty crappy before, and limps along super crappy all of these years later...but a lot (not all) of what I read from male subs on vanilla wife conversion nowadays brings my cousin's rant back to my mind. And they either lack my cousin's self awareness, or in some cases I suspect, her honesty that it really was all about her.

The problem with this conversation, for me, is that the subject of vanilla wife introduction has become so intertwined with FLA horse hockey *conversion*, I can't separate it out.

I find FLA so patronizing to women, it makes me crazy. "If you are a good little wifey and beat your husband the way he desires, you'll get more orgasms AND all of the housework done. Ooooh, and just for fun, we'll pretend that you're superior to him, too, you clearly need a self esteem boost."

I'm sorry. I did hear everything Mistress 160, solipsist and roo-roo said, I just can't exorcise

"All women are superior to men and all women are a potential Dominatrix. "

out of my brain long enough to respond coherently.

Elizabeth
_________________
<i>Show a little faith. There's magic in the night. - Bruce</i>

[maymay]

Wow, there's so much here. I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I did want to pose a question that people can either answer or ignore at their whim:

How often do you (how often do you think others) go about finding relationships in a "vanilla" versus finding relationships with people you know to be kinky already? Is this a function of environment, of opportunity, or of choice?

The whole question of "converting" someone has never been an issue for me because I simply don't try as I haven't the need. Any partner I would and have ever pursued is already out about being kinky. It cuts down the dating pool, but it makes play a possibility very quickly.
_________________
-maymay
Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed (my blog)

[roo-roo]

Good question. I do like the fact that women who are already "out" are usually up for talking about bdsm openly and honestly. (And the fact that they can take me for a test drive first helps as well.) On the other hand, some in the scene seem to have misconceptions about what a "real" sub is, and have expectations that I can't (or won't) fulfill. So they've both got their advantages and disadvantages.

[Elizabeth7777]

[Herknight]

If you realize you're submissive many years into a marriage, it's worth bringing it up for discussion. my Princess was not a Domme awaiting Her awakening, but She is exploring with me - to my great happiness. i am doing my best not to top from the bottom.

[boba]

Lady Misato changes vanilla women into happy dommes regularly, but her method still implies a willingness of the women to be a domme. The woman has to be open to it. What I found very interesting is that Misato's method implies that the male's will is imaterial...that he can be trained to be addicted to her sex and will come along whether he is submissive or not. In the end, he will be submissive to some extent.

So I got to thinking...can this be reversed? Could I some how train my vanilla woman into being a domme...without her realizing at first. By the time she sees the rabbit, she has decided she likes it.

First I had to define domme for me. What I wanted, and more importantly, what I didn't want. I had to abondon all pretenses. I was going to top from bottom. My vanilla woman wants me to lead. She wants to please me. I am going to have to work within those limits and maybe even use them.

What did I want? I don't dream of the housework, or the tasks. I dream of the teasing, the outfit, the confidence and the sex. The tasks and housework just make it better..but only in the context of the teasing and reward.

As Misato states you need primary and secondary reinforcers as reward. For men the primary is orgasm/sex, and the secondary is teasing. I chose primary reinforcers that my woman loves: back/body massage, and intimate communication. For secondary reinforces I chose neck/shoulder rubs (can be done anywhere), holding hands, romantic gestures, and chocolate.

I added something to the mix. It was a reason to change. I didn't want to make us miserable...but if things are already awesome...she is not going to want to change anything. So for a period of 2-3 months before I started any training, I was kind of quiet, disinterested in sex, rather stingy on massages and other gifts and kept to myself. I was never mean, angry or anything. Just a bit distant. I had more "headaches."

Then I started the training. The results were a mixed bag. We progressed much futher in some areas than I ever imagined, but in others I was disappointed. Our progress goes on however, and I believe we are both enjoying it.

I need to go. If anyone is interesting is know more, just reply to this post and I will type more later.

[LadyJulia]

Boba, do you plan on telling your wife of your "plan" and your "training"?